[Closed] Admin report: Mo^

Your in-game name: DexterMorgan
Admin who warned you: Mo^
Date and time of banning: Sat 14/11/2020 afternoon (GMT)
Reason given by the admin for the warning: wall-glitching
Your defence please: I used my rpg to kill a person standing right next to the police building door (as evidenced by me seeing them but also by their radar). My shot went precisely through the door opening. That's not wall glitching by any stretch of the definition of it. I've been killed like that countless times, including by staff and in the presence of staff members and not once was anyone so much as verbally warned for it. Please remove the warning asap.

We would like to see the evidence ourselves, if you may. Mo^ will be posting his defense.

I normally don't record my gaming. I hope that the basic tenets of justice aren't completely perverted in this server and that, therefore, the burden of proof lies with the accuser. I'm ofc more than happy for him or anyone else, for that matter, to provide evidence of my kill.

P.S. DarkRazor kindly consider responding to the pm of a simple user as well? it's been 2 weeks now, come on.

Hey Dexter shooting at a door opening is not a rule break, but you are kinda stretching your luck. Why? Rockets should only be used in open areas for example shooting rockets between the cop spawn location and the car is 100 % fine.

The problem here dexter is that if you accidently hit a wall to the side and kill someone you can be punished for rocket glitching. If you did however shoot at the door opening that can be acceptable if it's true.

You're also stretching your luck by shooting very very close to two spawn locations, which could perhaps cause spawn killing.

So my recommendation even if the report gets denied or accepted, is that you stop shooting rockets at spawn locations and keep your rockets to open areas.

I asked Mo to reply to this and he can explain it from his perspective as well before any decision is made.

From my vision inside the police station you was shooting from a roof ( I believe in it was your typical roof "loc psroof2" where your bullets can't ever go throw the door inside the station. ) to the spawn location of cops Your bullets and the player was hiding behind the wall besides the door, then your shoots went into the walls beside the entrance more near the door but it still shooted the walls (Noting that : there is also some solid invisible walls in the entrance of the station), however i warned him before couple of times stop doing that he might risk himself in wall glitching or a spawn kill be he never listened to me.

1) Bullets can and surely go through the door from that roof as there is a clear and open way for fire to go through, you can even see characters behind the entrance. I even have been killed by snipers behind that door. Not to mention numerous rockets (sometimes via glitching, sometimes not)
2) "Couple of warnings" is simply not true.
3) To Angel: I agree, I don't normally shoot there; it was a silent period with few players and much fewer with radaron and/or nogoto off so I went for it. But when I do go for something like this, inc. this time, I am careful both to not spawkill and not to wall glitch. Please note that the person I killed wasn't in the spawloc inside the station, they were sitting right next to the door. That's why I want Mo or the person who died (or anyone else, for that matter) to provide evidence that I killed them by rocketing the wall and not through the door entrance.

DexterMorganReal wrote:1) Bullets can and surely go through the door from that roof as there is a clear and open way for fire to go through, you can even see characters behind the entrance. I even have been killed by snipers behind that door. Not to mention numerous rockets (sometimes via glitching, sometimes not)
2) "Couple of warnings" is simply not true.
3) To Angel: I agree, I don't normally shoot there; it was a silent period with few players and much fewer with radaron and/or nogoto off so I went for it. But when I do go for something like this, inc. this time, I am careful both to not spawkill and not to wall glitch. Please note that the person I killed wasn't in the spawloc inside the station, they were sitting right next to the door. That's why I want Mo or the person who died (or anyone else, for that matter) to provide evidence that I killed them by rocketing the wall and not through the door entrance.

I am only responding to 3 and Mo can respond to the rest.

Just avoid doing it completely in the future. Keep your rockets to open areas (between the spawn point and cop car for example). Even if you are careful you can still easily make mistake because you can't predict where everyone is in the building, it's very easy to mess up. I understand that you have been killed by this before and some laser shots just to be clear: that's not cool either, but we can't do anything about those sorts of things unless we see proof or see it ourselves.

1. Rockets only explodes outside the police station Don't go inside because when you are on the that roof you don't see the full door or even the players inside you only shoot by their radar and checking your luck.
Besides there is an semi invisible walls blocks even m4 and m60 bullets to go out/in the station at the two edges of the door you even can test it yourself.

2. Not only me warned me you before for that, Also 3more gave you verbal warning that you can do Wall Glitch or Spawn kill.

1) Just to steer clear of the uncertainty I could avoid it in the future. But this particular instance is simple. Get on that roof, aim for the door opening. If it kills someone standing right next to the entrance, it's not wall glitching. They were killed because that's how rpg works, it kills people in a range around the point of impact. Not because it hit some wall, which it didn't. Anyone can go on that roof and test it for themselves. Now if there's a huge invisible wall that blocks everything except people and vehs (weird af), how would I know it? Nobody had specifically warned me about that and if you insist that you did, please provide proof.
2) "Couple of warnings" didn't happen. What happened instead is (at least) a couple of injustices against me after our falling out that prove your bias. E.g. abusing your admin powers to start the "troll bridge" twice for no other reason than to drown me when i went with my bike on it. And you then laughed frantically. Or, after I killed you, appearing out of nowhere (obviously by (ab)using your admin /spectate command, because i had my /specmode off) in random locs where I was to take revenge. It's a pattern of behaviour that reveals an obsession to take revenge and/or even take me out of this server altogether and this is where this false warning fits. Your loc was inside the building so you wouldn't even know where I was and yet you didn't hesitate a second to use the command. And then ofc you & your friends laughed and cherished the proud moment by copy/pasting it. You may be able to fool your superiors who weren't present but you'll never fool me or yourself, you'll always know the sad truth and that's enough
3) Another issue, since many admins follow this: There should be a rule that old warnings should expire after X years or that, at least, once you're punished for old warnings, they're removed. Because if you don't do this, you're punishing regulars. If you're using the server for thousands of hours/year it's a lot easier to make some mistake in the span of  a multitude of years. But it's a mistake in 0.0001% of your total gaming. And once time goes by and/or you're punished for it, it should be cleared. Otherwise it'll be as if you're encouraging users to make new accounts. Btw like Mikimon does, I mentioned this to Darkrazor but got no response. He created a separate persona "DexterKiller" and kept /goto to me and kept spawning tanks to kill himself and me. Ofc he doesn't care about the ratio of that second persona so he can use that lame way of killing me, ending my sprees etc. as much as he likes. But is it fair?

1. Again the bullets can't go through the gate inside the station and the your bullets didn't hit the gate it was hitting the wall which that guy was there inside not exactly infront if the gate.

2. I already told you more than thousands times, Bridgetroll isn't an admin cmd it is for everyone who unlocks it from /zone can use it and also told you if you think I am cheating my abusing any of my commands, you always can report it but you never did because you know that nothing from that is true.

3. That's why you don't get banned after your first or second or even third time unless it is high sensitivity rule breaking.

4. I have cleared everything from side about everything you reported me for.

1) 100% they can go through, plus rpg doesn't need to hit you directly in the head to kill you like sniper. Any admin can try it, it's from the furthest edge to the right of the roof that is diagonal to the station (the roof i usually use in that area)
2) You knew my loc because you were spectating me and used bridge troll specifically to kill me. Proves your bias, whether it is formally abuse of your power or not. And, in any case the "if you have evidence report me" is ridiculous. I don't find justice even when I provide proof. When, by the very definition of what I am accusing you for, I cannot be in a position to have evidence, ofc I can't report you for it, the culture of protecting admins in this server will never allow it.
3) I got banned almost every after other warning, and the warnings remain there, the system is flawed. No comment re: "DexterKiller"?

I will write this very fast since I got a lot to say. If my grammar doesn't make sense at certain places please ask, because I didn't read through it more than once. This is basically my decision to close the report, but I am willing to have a conversation with Dexter if he wants to argue for keeping this report open. I just want to say that if an admin breaks the rules. We punishes them.

Here is my long response:

1) So what Dexter is saying is that he shot on the floor right in front of the cop door and that hit another player on the other side of the wall basically?

Mo claims that it actually hit a wall and wasn't exactly in front of the door.

We got two sides to the story. Is how I look at it.

Here is my response to what Dexter said and my decision:

"I don't find justice even when I provide proof"

None of you provide proof, but I can promise you that if you did the proof would be examined.

"You knew my loc because you were spectating me and used bridge troll specifically to kill me"

We got logs and it sends out messages to all admins whenever an admin enters spectate mode so this can be detected. If you believe that Mo is doing this and you want to prove that he is spectating you in the future use /time when you suspect him to be doing it and we can check the logs to find out. He has all the right to actually use /aspec as long as he doesn't use it for DMing purposes. He is allowed to use it to detect rule breaks.


"When, by the very definition of what I am accusing you for, I cannot be in a position to have evidence, ofc I can't report you for it, the culture of protecting admins in this server will never allow it."

I agree it's not easy to provide proof of something you are being accused of, since that's not how proof work normally. It's easier to prove that something happened than to prove that something didn't happen. However, Dexter there needs to be some sort of trust here. Forcing every admin to always have recording software on or to provide proof in this small game is simply not feasible. If this was a big game with a huge community, there were lots of rule breaks going on and/or people being paid to administrate this server I would definitely make it a requirement. I would of course recommend that admins record all their gameplay, but can't force it.

The reality is that most people here got poor internet and they are busy irl with work and school. They got basically not much time. Any time of their free time they spend they want to spend to have fun. When they join they are players just like us looking to get some relaxation time, any time they spend catching rule-breakers is very much appreciated.

It's extremely hard to find people that you can trust that has the experience, loyalty, maturity, good attitude, activity, and free time to help out in this work. The community is very small and staff members leave at a rate that is faster than what we are recruiting.

Mo has all of those qualities and he has over the years earned our trust, which is why he is in the position he is. We all can make bad judgments. Our staff sure has made a lot of them, but this is the best model we have at the moment. From Mo's side if I or anyone else see him doing something bad and see proof of it or hear from enough players we will look into it. Mo has as far as I am aware never been reported and I don't remember any cases of me hearing of any players complaining about him. But if I do hear something or see any signs of improvements I will tell them directly. Like the below:

"You knew my loc because you were spectating me and used bridge troll specifically to kill me"

This is obviously not allowed for killing purposes. The spectating thing is harder to prove we need to search the logs, but for the bridge troll. It's absolutely disallowed to use it for DMing purposes. It's supposed to be a fun troll between friends, I have informed Mo of that. I expect every admin to follow the guidelines that are clearly written when you execute the command.


"3) I got banned almost every after other warning, and the warnings remain there, the system is flawed. No comment re: "DexterKiller"?"

The warnings don't go away just because you were punished. If you wall glitch the first time, you get warned. The second time and maybe even the third time can be excused with a normal warning. However, after doing it enough time a ban is the punishment you should get.

If you get banned, then after your ban expires and you decide to break the same rule, you should technically not even receive a warning you should be banned again. The warnings are there to make you aware of the rules, if you got 2-3 warnings on your account you're fully aware of the rules and thus you have no excuse to break them. That's why your warnings are not removed.

In this case, you got a warning, which in my opinion is a fair punishment. You got another warning when you could have just been banned for breaking the rules again even though you are aware of it.

2) Overall the conclusion is this was just a warning for a rule break you have broken multiple times. You have a history of stretching our rules and being unfair in your gameplay, so much that you are definitely one of the reasons we introduced the driveby system, to begin with.

I do not take sides with the admins or the players. I want fairness and I try to judge things fairly. I'll have you know that I been accused of taking the players side too much as well and I will not stop doing it. But the fact stands that this punishment is minor and both sides lack proof. So I have the option between believing a loyal/trusted admin that has gained my trust over several years or you Dexter. That's all I can go by in this case. It's of course important that I don't get blinded by false trust, but in this case I need to rely on it due to a lack of proof. So I hope you can understand my decision here since there is nothing else to go by. I can assure you that I'll keep this in mind for the future and keep an extra eye like always.

In the future Dexter avoiding this is simple: Stop shooting at the spawn locations or closed areas. Like I brought up and I think you agreed to it: At the cop spawn area. Shoot at the area near the cop car instead of around it. Avoiding shooting at door openings and closed areas.

1) I fully understand your pov and let it be said that I never sensed that you're abusing powers or turning a blind eye to others doing it but you can only provide so much oversight, like you said. And ofc when in doubt, your course of action makes sense even though outlining it here means a malicious admin could abuse this to issue another warning with 0 proof and get rid of me for a period of time. However, merely from what Mo said it's clear a) he didn't know my loc b) he claimed that, regardless, it's impossible to cause damage without glitching anywhere past the station entrance. Both of which render his immediate issue of a warning (without investigating, it literally took him 3 seconds, just the time to type the command - if he didn't have it already prepared in his clipboard ) very problematic. As for the latter, I've tried with other weps such as sniper and they could clearly cause damage in a veh i left inside, in the area where the player I killed was (and would, therefore, cause damage to the player too), without that being due to "glitching the walls". In my opinion, these points alone prove that some bias exists.
2) Now, don't get me wrong, while it's obvious that he hates my gut, it's fine, it's also fine if he laughs at my deaths (even the troll bridge ones that crossed the line and I'm happy that you noted) or even joins the banter re: my warning or anything. I don't mind that, but I'm convinced at this point that this hatred carries over on his use of his admin powers. Let's hope that he'll be more careful after this and I'll also be more careful and we won't have any further issues like that.
3) Re: the permanency of warnings: I have been banned twice in recent times, shouldn't I get a clean slate at one point? I agree that repeat offenders deserve harsher punishment but even irl crimes expire after you serve some time (or due to statute of limitations). I'm saying this because these "dubious" cases are just 0.001% of my total gaming and I've played hundreds and hundreds of hours in this server. It's not like I go around glitching every day. This should count for something, i.e. show you that I don't systematically abuse rules. Now if there's a pandemonium in the police station and I shot in panic 1cm further than I'm supposed to and it's the first problematic rpg fired after 1000 clean ones... it shows I'm not disrespectful to the rules, it was just an unfortunate mistake and exception to my rule-abiding behaviour. PLUS: you say it yourselves "don't amass warnings coz if you have too many you may get banned". That's very unclear (how many is too many?) and also implies a static decision. You either have too many or not. If 4 is too many and I get banned, when I come back, I still have 4 and another one will make it 5, still too many, so do I then get banned for every extra warning? A very obfuscated system.
4) Finally, re: the culture of impunity I referred to. a) Digimon who is also an enemy (and an ally of Mo) did that DexterKiller thing I described above and faced no punishment. I'm asking again, then, is it ok to have second personas? b) The other day 3more warned me for "evasion" because while trying to escape from a sniper (3more happened to be him) that had no eyes on me anymore, I jumped from a roof to another but ended up falling to the ground and died (ruining my spree) even though I could use /heal while falling (if falling was intentional). Nobody on here listened to my arguments or provided a reasonable response to my logical objections. I fear that an alliance of anti-Dex people up there are slowly adding dubious (at best) warnings here and there to get rid of me for good. If this happens, I will indeed rid you of my presence for good, even though this is the best vks server around and it'll be a pity. Thanks for listening

DexterMorganReal wrote:1) I fully understand your pov and let it be said that I never sensed that you're abusing powers or turning a blind eye to others doing it but you can only provide so much oversight, like you said. And ofc when in doubt, your course of action makes sense even though outlining it here means a malicious admin could abuse this to issue another warning with 0 proof and get rid of me for a period of time. However, merely from what Mo said it's clear a) he didn't know my loc b) he claimed that, regardless, it's impossible to cause damage without glitching anywhere past the station entrance. Both of which render his immediate issue of a warning (without investigating, it literally took him 3 seconds, just the time to type the command - if he didn't have it already prepared in his clipboard ) very problematic. As for the latter, I've tried with other weps such as sniper and they could clearly cause damage in a veh i left inside, in the area where the player I killed was (and would, therefore, cause damage to the player too), without that being due to "glitching the walls". In my opinion, these points alone prove that some bias exists.
2) Now, don't get me wrong, while it's obvious that he hates my gut, it's fine, it's also fine if he laughs at my deaths (even the troll bridge ones that crossed the line and I'm happy that you noted) or even joins the banter re: my warning or anything. I don't mind that, but I'm convinced at this point that this hatred carries over on his use of his admin powers. Let's hope that he'll be more careful after this and I'll also be more careful and we won't have any further issues like that.
3) Re: the permanency of warnings: I have been banned twice in recent times, shouldn't I get a clean slate at one point? I agree that repeat offenders deserve harsher punishment but even irl crimes expire after you serve some time (or due to statute of limitations). I'm saying this because these "dubious" cases are just 0.001% of my total gaming and I've played hundreds and hundreds of hours in this server. It's not like I go around glitching every day. This should count for something, i.e. show you that I don't systematically abuse rules. Now if there's a pandemonium in the police station and I shot in panic 1cm further than I'm supposed to and it's the first problematic rpg fired after 1000 clean ones... it shows I'm not disrespectful to the rules, it was just an unfortunate mistake and exception to my rule-abiding behaviour. PLUS: you say it yourselves "don't amass warnings coz if you have too many you may get banned". That's very unclear (how many is too many?) and also implies a static decision. You either have too many or not. If 4 is too many and I get banned, when I come back, I still have 4 and another one will make it 5, still too many, so do I then get banned for every extra warning? A very obfuscated system.
4) Finally, re: the culture of impunity I referred to. a) Digimon who is also an enemy (and an ally of Mo) did that DexterKiller thing I described above and faced no punishment. I'm asking again, then, is it ok to have second personas? b) The other day 3more warned me for "evasion" because while trying to escape from a sniper (3more happened to be him) that had no eyes on me anymore, I jumped from a roof to another but ended up falling to the ground and died (ruining my spree) even though I could use /heal while falling (if falling was intentional). Nobody on here listened to my arguments or provided a reasonable response to my logical objections. I fear that an alliance of anti-Dex people up there are slowly adding dubious (at best) warnings here and there to get rid of me for good. If this happens, I will indeed rid you of my presence for good, even though this is the best vks server around and it'll be a pity. Thanks for listening

1) Sorry for taking so much time Dexter but I am very busy. About the 0 proof thing I understand that's a possibility of course, but Mo posses years of trust, experience and has yet to do something to let me down so far. That doesn't mean I should blindly trust him or anyone else. But he is in a high position because of trust and I can't simply make all judgement in the server which is why I need someone I can trust and out of everyone that plays here he has earned my trust.

If it turns out he abuses it, he will be punished. But as the fact stands we need to have more reports or proof before I can make the conclusion. If you want to help you can try to report him if he does something bad and provide a link to this report. If the reports stack up and more people provide similar reports then we might have a case.

Also at the end of the day this is a warning and I got a limited amount of time and I feel this report doesn't really justify it. If you however get banned for something, then I feel it deserves more investigating.

You keep listing reasons why what mo is saying is false. I can't really keep up with them at this point. I don't really have time to analyze the topic once more. Like I said if it was a ban I would have, but it's just a warning.

2) I mean bias carries over from everything. If an admin hates someone I am sure they will look for any reason whatsoever to ban them, but they still need to find solid rule breaks. This warning will not really have an impact on future cases you are reported for wall glitching (if that happens) because you have violated it several times already and most admins know it. No one is perfect, but the best we can get is someone who at least follows the rules.

3) I agree the system is unclear. But wall glitching is very simple to avoid. Do not shoot at close spaces anymore and you will not have this issue. Yes if you play many times. You might make mistakes.

I see it more as if you are at the shooting range and keep your gun always pointed towards the targets and then not at someone else. You can't get charged for shooting another person. But I kinda feel like how are you playing with that rule is that you're practicing shooting cans off other people and then giving the argument that you can easily hit people by doing that, when in reality you shouldn't be aiming at the actual shooting range.

How does this apply to wall glitching. Avoid shooting at buildings. Between the cop car and the spawnpoint is where you should aim. Spawnpoints and interiors should be off limit or at your own risk.

Not sure if I explained that well enough.

4) I am not aware of those cases at all so I can't speak to them. Based on that yes digimon should be punished if he did the same thing and yes accidently falling from a building shouldn't be considered death evading if it was an accident, we differentiate that by judging how often it happens. You have been prone to jumping in water to drown yourself to avoid getting killed in the past if I am not mistaken. What I feel to correct this from your own side (this is just a recommendation and not something I force you to do) be a good sport. In that case tell 3more: Listen that was an honest mistake, I'll give you a free kill on me, is that fine?

Is what I would do. Then you will at least look better if someone reports you or whatever.


For now Dexter, my time is limited I can't put more time into a report about warnings. I need to close it. Please keep this report with you and make sure to report anything unfair you see in the server, because if no one does I can't really help. You are being listened to but I don't have much to go for here. I will keep this report in my mind and see if something else happens.

Closed.