[Closed] Admin report: =SdS=Celestia

Your in-game name: DexterMorgan
Admin who banned you: D4rKR420R (due to a warning from Celestia)
Date and time of banning: Sat 8/8/2020 afternoon (GMT)
Reason given by the admin for the ban: wall-glitching
Your defence please: It wasn't wall glitching, i was casually going to the Tropicana club with my bike, I saw 2 whites on the radar inside the club and started shooting from some distance. Apparently the club was locked and the whites were right behind the door (or, the way I saw it, at least, they were exiting, that's why I could clearly see their skins) so Celestia (whom I killed) warned me for "wall glitching" when clearly it was not. Plus, the other warnings (that led to this ban) were ancient, so they should be cleared by now, esp. since i haven't repeated any of the alleged offences despite often playing on a daily basis for months on end.
Witnesses who support you (in-game names): Facts speak for themselves.
Any screenshots you took for your defence: I couldn't possible screenshot anything. It's the other side that should provide screenshots. Plus, habeas corpus, bitches, I'm innocent until proven guilty, no?

The point is, how is it my fault if they were only juuuust behind the door? This isn't even 100% sure without a screenshot but, in any case, how would i know? It's not like i camped outside or that I spammed rockets on the wall. That's what wall glitching is. Not drivebying and hitting someone who may be -by a fragment of a cm- still inside a locked building (mind you, if it weren't locked, my kill would be 100345% legit). I just saw ppl on the radar and went towards that direction while shooting (like all drivebyers normally do). To ban me for days or weeks for these even though I have zero bans for wallglitching on my name for so many years is patently unfair and I will seriously consider quitting this server for good if you insist on this decision.

I assume you're referring to Malibu club, by locked do you mean the prop was locked (can't /proploc to it) or the door was closed? If the door was closed then it was a wallglitch, and if it wasn't closed then if what you said is true about the position of the enemy then it shouldn't be considered wall glitch since the explosion is not just penetrating the wall but also impacting through the open area. Also, just by saying that your old warns are ancient, doesn't really mean that you have never committed a rule break, yes we are considering when we should clear the warns, but for this case if it is proved that you wall glitched then you'll have to stay banned until your ban is expired. Hopefully your response to my question and Celestia's side to the story will help us determine if there is a wallglitch offense here or not.

I was inside Malibu club with another player and the door of Malibu was closed. When I was standing near the door, DexterMorgan drivebyed with bike to shoot through the door and killed me. It's clear wall glitch.

DexterMorganReal wrote:Apparently the club was locked and the whites were right behind the door (or, the way I saw it, at least, they were exiting, that's why I could clearly see their skins).

The door of Malibu is translucent, that's why we can see each other through the door.


Dexter, about the warn I gave you, I had removed it before you got banned. Since instead of getting away with a warn, you should be banned directly.

Hi, thanks for your responses. I just looked at the updated server rules. According to them, what I did, even if Celestia was fully inside the Malibu (which I still kinda doubt), doesn't even warrant a warning (much less a ban) as I didn't use any of the -rightfully- specifically mentioned weps used for glitching; i used my usual driveby uzi. Now, if we add to that that I was just rushing to kill someone I saw was in my vicinity without paying too much attention and the door, if closed, was translucent so much so that I could clearly see my enemies (not just Celestia whom I killed but even his friend who was behind him!), even if it was wrong (which is not, as per the rules), I would obviously deserve a temp-warning at worst because it would be a clear mistake of negligence not intentional wall glitching. After all, I've used this server for thousands of hours in the past few years and I have 0 bans for glitching, if it was something I did intentionally (and not by accident/a bad coincidence) this should have been a lot more frequent and in a lot more clear-cut cases. Anyway, here's the full rule for your convenience:

Wall Glitching : It is not allowed to damage anyone by penetrating any form of solid objects by abusing the VCMP bug using weapons like sniper, molotov/flamethrower, explosions, chainsaw, melee, fist or by exploding a vehicle that may or may not glitched in the wall. An exception to this rule is damaging the player by shooting to an open area and objects that can be shown at different places on players' screens due to sync issues e.g a crate, a streetlight, a mailbox (basically an object that can be knocked or moved by players), will be punished with a warning on first offense and temp-ban on the second offense.

DexterMorganReal wrote:Hi, thanks for your responses. I just looked at the updated server rules. According to them, what I did, even if Celestia was fully inside the Malibu (which I still kinda doubt), doesn't even warrant a warning (much less a ban) as I didn't use any of the -rightfully- specifically mentioned weps used for glitching; i used my usual driveby uzi. Now, if we add to that that I was just rushing to kill someone I saw was in my vicinity without paying too much attention and the door, if closed, was translucent so much so that I could clearly see my enemies (not just Celestia whom I killed but even his friend who was behind him!), even if it was wrong (which is not, as per the rules), I would obviously deserve a temp-warning at worst because it would be a clear mistake of negligence not intentional wall glitching. After all, I've used this server for thousands of hours in the past few years and I have 0 bans for glitching, if it was something I did intentionally (and not by accident/a bad coincidence) this should have been a lot more frequent and in a lot more clear-cut cases. Anyway, here's the full rule for your convenience:

Wall Glitching : It is not allowed to damage anyone by penetrating any form of solid objects by abusing the VCMP bug using weapons like sniper, molotov/flamethrower, explosions, chainsaw, melee, fist or by exploding a vehicle that may or may not glitched in the wall. An exception to this rule is damaging the player by shooting to an open area and objects that can be shown at different places on players' screens due to sync issues e.g a crate, a streetlight, a mailbox (basically an object that can be knocked or moved by players), will be punished with a warning on first offense and temp-ban on the second offense.

The point is if you kill/damage someone by penetrating any form of solid objects, it's counted as wall glitch. The weapons/measures the rule mentioned are just some examples.

"Weapons like" is not the same as "all weapons". Uzi is not a glitching wep like rockets or molotvs, grenades etc. are. That's why the rule-makers qualified it to include specific weps and not all of them, bcoz driveby uzi can't be a glitcher. I've never, ever, seen anyone get penalised for "glitching" with uzi. By your logic, if you opened the door for a sec to shoot at me and then closed it immediately back to defend, I'd still get banned? lol. Makes zero sense and would be completely unfair. Please remove the warning/ban asap; rules cannot be any clearer.

DexterMorganReal wrote:"Weapons like" is not the same as "all weapons". Uzi is not a glitching wep like rockets or molotvs, grenades etc. are. That's why the rule-makers qualified it to include specific weps and not all of them, bcoz driveby uzi can't be a glitcher. I've never, ever, seen anyone get penalised for "glitching" with uzi. By your logic, if you opened the door for a sec to shoot at me and then closed it immediately back to defend, I'd still get banned? lol. Makes zero sense and would be completely unfair. Please remove the warning/ban asap; rules cannot be any clearer.

Which weapon you used to driveby doesn't matter, the point is you used driveby instead of using "Uzi" on foot. As you are an experienced drivebyer, I personally don't believe that you don't know driveby can be used to do wall glitch.

If you think I opened the door so that I got killed, then I can provide you my SS of chat logs in a few hours, as I'm currently away from my PC.

I didn't say that you did that. Only that you could do it and that, by your logic, if you had done it you'd be alive and I'd still get a ban which would make zero sense. And no, I don't know that you can wallglitch with uzi/driveby. I still doubt it. Maybe it's that particular door that allows for it. I've never ever seen anyone get banned for "glitching" with uzi. If driveby/uzi counts as a glitching wep then I wonder what is not. If all weps are potential glitchers then the rule should've been worded differently. Plus, for the reasons explained above, banning me is not only against the word of the law but also against its spirit as there was nothing intentional in my behavior. A final argument against my ban: specific comments in the rules thread but also the final note in the rules say that you need to be a repeat-offender of glitching to get anything more than a warning/one-off kick, which i'm not. So just please unban me and let's put this wrong decision behind us all.

Hello DexterMorgan, hope you're having a nice day. I banned you on behalf on Celestia's request so I'm clueless why my name is mentioned here. I would also like to clarify this statement.

DexterMorganReal wrote:To ban me for days or weeks for these even though I have zero bans for wallglitching on my name for so many years...

You were actually banned before and, if I recall, warned from Mo^, based from these logs.



P.S. Change the title of the topic in the correct format.

I copy pasted the format from the unban request thingie, where I didn't get a proper response and since this one asks for the admin who actually banned you, I mentioned your nickname. The thing is, you don't touch upon the heart of the matter, though, and it's disappointing. Drivebying cannot be glitching, esp. in the blurry area of a closed door that could've been closed after i started shooting. How can you ban someone without video evidence? And I chose my words very carefully, I said no bans for years. I didn't say no bans ever, when I was new I didn't know the glitch rules and then they changed anyway quite a few times but since I was on and off with this server I didn't always keep track of changes. But in recent years I have 0 bans for this and maybe only 1 warning. The rules state that first you get a warning, then a kick and then maybe a temp-ban. If you can't find 2 permawarns on wallglitching before this incident then my ban should be rescinded even if I was at fault (which I quite clearly wasn't).

D4rKR420R wrote:Hello DexterMorgan, hope you're having a nice day. I banned you on behalf on Celestia's request so I'm clueless why my name is mentioned here. I would also like to clarify this statement.

DexterMorganReal wrote:To ban me for days or weeks for these even though I have zero bans for wallglitching on my name for so many years...

You were actually banned before and, if I recall, warned from Mo^, based from these logs.



P.S. Change the title of the topic in the correct format.

Sorry for replying here, the wall glitching rule was unclarified or incomplete at that time and his punishment by me was not valid at all. When Angel saw this topic   " https://vkserver.forumotion.com/t10765-acceptedunban-request-dextermorgan " , he and management has made an agreement to make changes on wall glitching rule. I replied here because I want to clarify something to you.

DexterMorganReal wrote:I copy pasted the format from the unban request thingie, where I didn't get a proper response and since this one asks for the admin who actually banned you, I mentioned your nickname. The thing is, you don't touch upon the heart of the matter, though, and it's disappointing. Drivebying cannot be glitching, esp. in the blurry area of a closed door that could've been closed after i started shooting. How can you ban someone without video evidence? And I chose my words very carefully, I said no bans for years. I didn't say no bans ever, when I was new I didn't know the glitch rules and then they changed anyway quite a few times but since I was on and off with this server I didn't always keep track of changes. But in recent years I have 0 bans for this and maybe only 1 warning. The rules state that first you get a warning, then a kick and then maybe a temp-ban. If you can't find 2 permawarns on wallglitching before this incident then my ban should be rescinded even if I was at fault (which I quite clearly wasn't).

According to the rules, you technically abused a VC:MP bug, however that's from me.

ShadowJacK. wrote:Sorry for replying here, the wall glitching rule was unclarified or incomplete at that time and his punishment by me was not valid at all. When Angel saw this topic   " https://vkserver.forumotion.com/t10765-acceptedunban-request-dextermorgan " , he and management has made an agreement to make changes on wall glitching rule. I replied here because I want to clarify something to you.

I see. Thank you.

Thanks ShadowJack for your comment. He offers a further reason for why my ban MUST be rescinded. As for your response, Perrumi, why is it then that the official server rules specify that only particular weps count as glitching? And I repeat, and I challenge anyone with photo/video evidence to come forward, even if we ignore this part, there was no "abusing" of a bug on my part, at worst i made an accidental kill in error. Abuse conveys a systematic character and intention. Like me camping outside Malibu and using rpg or molotovs or anything to kill those near the walls. Not me rushing to an enemy I saw on the radar and killing them with uzi because they were (maybe) only a millimetre inside a building with a translucent door and I could clearly see their skin (not only theirs but of players standing behind them!)

You are the one who needs to provide video proof to prove what you said, instead of us.
Also, intentionally or not, what you did is counted as wall glitch.

So, I need to record all my gaming just in case someone makes a false accusation when they're perhaps emotionally affected by the fact that they were just killed. Nice. Also, the rules are clear, for a temp-ban there needs to be at least either 4 permawarns (as per the last note in the rules) or 2 permawarns for glitching (prior to the alleged glitching here). Provide evidence of those or rescind the ban. If you ignore this like all my other arguments by saying generic things "you wall glitched, get rekt" and all the other admins stand by this, I'm seriously done with this server and I'll be sorry I considered some of you mi amigos.

DexterMorganReal wrote:So, I need to record all my gaming just in case someone makes a false accusation when they're perhaps emotionally affected by the fact that they were just killed. Nice. Also, the rules are clear, for a temp-ban there needs to be at least either 4 permawarns (as per the last note in the rules) or 2 permawarns for glitching (prior to the alleged glitching here). Provide evidence of those or rescind the ban. If you ignore this like all my other arguments by saying generic things "you wall glitched, get rekt" and all the other admins stand by this, I'm seriously done with this server and I'll be sorry I considered some of you mi amigos.

Celestia says that you've wallglitched in past and were warned for it, this is your second time so you should be tempbanned according to rules. Although Celestia does not have ban access so he should've provided proof to DarkRazor so he can proceed with the ban. I request Celestia to present that proof. If there is no such proof then DarkRazor shouldn't have proceeded with the ban since he did not witness the offense himself.

ЧК. wrote:

DexterMorganReal wrote:So, I need to record all my gaming just in case someone makes a false accusation when they're perhaps emotionally affected by the fact that they were just killed. Nice. Also, the rules are clear, for a temp-ban there needs to be at least either 4 permawarns (as per the last note in the rules) or 2 permawarns for glitching (prior to the alleged glitching here). Provide evidence of those or rescind the ban. If you ignore this like all my other arguments by saying generic things "you wall glitched, get rekt" and all the other admins stand by this, I'm seriously done with this server and I'll be sorry I considered some of you mi amigos.

Celestia says that you've wallglitched in past and were warned for it, this is your second time so you should be tempbanned according to rules. Although Celestia does not have ban access so he should've provided proof to DarkRazor so he can proceed with the ban. I request Celestia to present that proof. If there is no such proof then DarkRazor shouldn't have proceeded with the ban since he did not witness the offense himself.

Fine, I don't have video proof but I will provide my chatlogs to prove I was inside the Malibu club with the door closed.
According to we both's statement before, it's clear that Dextermorgan was outside of Malibu club.

Update: I have sent the SS to 4K.

all the other issues aside: "the impact of that weapon that penetrates a solid object is also not allowed from any position. If you're caught wall glitching in this way, you will first get a warning, then get a kick on the second offense and finally get a temp-ban on any subsequent offenses" that was the last amendment to the glitching rules as far as I can tell, so there need to be 3 offences for a temp-ban and I don't have 3

DexterMorganReal wrote:all the other issues aside: "the impact of that weapon that penetrates a solid object is also not allowed from any position. If you're caught wall glitching in this way, you will first get a warning, then get a kick on the second offense and finally get a temp-ban on any subsequent offenses" that was the last amendment to the glitching rules as far as I can tell, so there need to be 3 offences for a temp-ban and I don't have 3

There was later a complete rule overhaul which updated the whole rule structure. Here is the current rule punishment phrase: "will be punished with a warning on first offense and temp-ban on the second offense."

You need to look at the original rule post, updates are only relevant for the time they're posted. Also if you look at rest of the rule, it says: "It is not allowed to damage anyone by penetrating any form of solid objects by abusing the VCMP bug using weapons like...".

The word "like" only gives some examples, it does not mean that wallglitch is only restricted to those weapons.

When the rule was updated why was there no post to highlight the change and perhaps explain its rationale like it always happens when rules change? Also, rules are self-contradicting, at another point it says that "Warnings will be added to account via permawarn and once an individual reaches 4 warnings then they'll be temp banned for duration depending on the severity of the offenses." But you treat wallglitching like it's the most severe of the severe ones, handing a temp-ban on the 2nd incident, even if the alleged transgressions happened years apart. Makes no sense. Finally, the wording of the rule "weapons like" clearly implies that it doesn't refer to "any weapon" otherwise it would just say so or omit any reference to weapons. Whatever, if you punish me like that because i was running and shooting with my bike from distance and someone happened to have the translucent door closed (according to his own -falsifiable- logs) like i'm a systematic glitcher (with only maybe 2 or 3 cases in 10+ years of gaming), I don't care to be in this server anymore and I can see why the server's numbers are falling and will keep falling.

DexterMorganReal wrote:When the rule was updated why was there no post to highlight the change and perhaps explain its rationale like it always happens when rules change? Also, rules are self-contradicting, at another point it says that "Warnings will be added to account via permawarn and once an individual reaches 4 warnings then they'll be temp banned for duration depending on the severity of the offenses." But you treat wallglitching like it's the most severe of the severe ones, handing a temp-ban on the 2nd incident, even if the alleged transgressions happened years apart. Makes no sense. Finally, the wording of the rule "weapons like" clearly implies that it doesn't refer to "any weapon" otherwise it would just say so or omit any reference to weapons. Whatever, if you punish me like that because i was running and shooting with my bike from distance and someone happened to have the translucent door closed (according to his own -falsifiable- logs) like i'm a systematic glitcher (with only maybe 2 or 3 cases in 10+ years of gaming), I don't care to be in this server anymore and I can see why the server's numbers are falling and will keep falling.

The reason is that it was a complete overhaul and we asked all users to read all rules this tkme since all were updated and we couldn't discuss each update. It is not contradicting, ban for wallglitch and ban for exceeding warns are two different cases. It is like if you receive 4 warnings for four different rule breaks for first offense then you'll get a ban for exceeding warns. If you break the same rule again then it's more serious and in most cases it'll result into a ban. Anyways, we've discussed your previous and found that there was some uncertainty in the rule at that time and we soon updated the rule after a discussion from management therefore I feel it was not really your fault for that so we can reduce your ban time. But for that I need to see cooperation from your side you should accept that even if it was unintentional, you killed someone by glitching (penetrating a solid door).

I never hesitated in describing what happened. I'm saying that I could well have glitched as per your interpretation of the rules. But it's an unfair rule in this case. And to illustrate this I brought up a hypothetical: imagine celestia was locking and unlocking this barely discernible door. He was shooting when unlocked and locking it right when he stopped. that would mean that I'd risk tempban just by engaging him, i.e. the moral of penalising me is "don't even bother approaching enemies near doors that may close, even if these doors are translucent and you can see a number of players behind them, you may get banned and someone can even bait you for it" (and i'm not saying celestia did it on purpose here)

DexterMorganReal wrote:I never hesitated in describing what happened. I'm saying that I could well have glitched as per your interpretation of the rules. But it's an unfair rule in this case. And to illustrate this I brought up a hypothetical: imagine celestia was locking and unlocking this barely discernible door. He was shooting when unlocked and locking it right when he stopped. that would mean that I'd risk tempban just by engaging him, i.e. the moral of penalising me is "don't even bother approaching enemies near doors that may close, even if these doors are translucent and you can see a number of players behind them, you may get banned and someone can even bait you for it" (and i'm not saying celestia did it on purpose here)

We haven't seen this type of case yet and as you said that this is just hypothetical meaning Celestia was not doing this and therefore bringing up this example is irrelevant for this case. We might consider your example in management and see if the rule needs an update, but this case is not related to that so it doesn't help you here. You have to understand that you violated the current rule and unless you accept your mistake, we cannot proceed with helping you reduce your ban.

I specifically said that that's not what happened -.- but the fact that the above scenario is absolutely possible with that rule in place and your interpretation of it illustrates the unfairness of the situation. And here's a hypothetical question: If you were me, next time you were near Tropicana, would you risk going there to fight enemies? One of the plenty prop owners can easily use the lock door command next time I'm fighting there and I'll get banned for good. And if they're butthurt admins they don't even need to provide photo/video evidence. Good going! This server used to be fun and free, that's why it was better than any other vcmp server. These days? Not so much... Now you want me to bow to my overlords to reduce my ban? I won't have any of it. As i said, I have better things to do. Goodbye.

DexterMorganReal wrote:I specifically said that that's not what happened -.- but the fact that the above scenario is absolutely possible with that rule in place and your interpretation of it illustrates the unfairness of the situation. And here's a hypothetical question: If you were me, next time you were near Tropicana, would you risk going there to fight enemies? One of the plenty prop owners can easily use the lock door command next time I'm fighting there and I'll get banned for good. And if they're butthurt admins they don't even need to provide photo/video evidence. Good going! This server used to be fun and free, that's why it was better than any other vcmp server. These days? Not so much... Now you want me to bow to my overlords to reduce my ban? I won't have any of it. As i said, I have better things to do. Goodbye.

Your question makes no sense in this case because it's not what happened. Yes you have a point with your question and we will probably add it in the rule, but what you did is not related to it so it's better you accept the mistake you did rather than making imaginative situations of "what could've happened". It's best if you focus on "what actually happened" and accept your mistake accordingly so we can proceed with reducing your punishment based on the previous offense. If it is not something you want then you can just request for this unban app to be closed and we'll close and forget it.

I won't bow to my bot-like overlords so yeah, just close it. Bye now

Closed upon the author's request.